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 Post subject: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 7:09 am 
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well - just finished watching a print of Way Out West that I got hold of a while ago (a freebie so I can't complain) but what a let down. It is a Blackhawk print in fine shape with good sound - but the grading goes from fine to very pale on many occasions - but the worst part is the softness of it - totally impossible to focus to an acceptable level - I really like the movie and would buy another print - but are they all like this? If they are it's one to avoid in my view. Any opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 5:39 pm 
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Many collectors appear to be under the impression that Blackhawk were the better releases of all L&H material but it ain't the case.

Here's a list of the better releases for each title in 16mm:

http://www.film-center.com/lhfilms.html

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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:44 pm 
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I have to disagree with Mick on this one. I have stacks of Blackhawk prints in both super and regular 8. What you have is most likely a dupe from Niles. They were known for making bad copies of Blackhawk films. Every film I have from Blackhawk is top of the line best quality negatives and copied with the best equiptment. I have a Blackhawk in regular 8mm sound of WOW and it is sharp as can be and the sound is extremely good. I have seen other prints from Thunderbird, Niles, and others that were all low quality but I can present to you a rack of films from Blackhawk that are all the best available.
Again, you probably have one of the Nile's prints. You can verify this is you have the full leader on the reels.


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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:03 pm 
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It's not my opinion, Erik. It's a fact.
I have very sharp Blackhawks and I have pretty dupey looking Blackhawks.
:smile:

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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Well, my opinion is that you're both right. There's no question that Blackhawk varies. My "Way Out West" is worth a grade of "B" for sharpness, and "Sons of the Desert" a B- or C+. My best Blackhawks are a B+, which is to say good, but not as good as Disney reduction releases or Derann's best work (well, you can't beat those), worth A- to A. Now, I only have a couple of Niles features and between the contrast being blown out and general fuzzies I'd grade them C- or D+. So there's an obvious difference to me in both directions here.

Too bad there's not a more scientific way to compare and contrast what's going on.

So Guy: what's on those leaders?


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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Easy answer. Original Blackhawk prints have a cursive Blackwhawk Films Lab printed on the black part of the leader before the timing countdown. Niles prints have a solid typwriter style Niles Film Products printed on the leader of each reel. This is all about if you have the entire reels or not. Also if it is a Castle films print, some of them were printed by Pyramid printing which is also in solid letters on the leader. Castle, later on Universal 8, normally only used Pyramid or Columbia printing labs.
I've been collecting Blackhawk prints for 20 years now and original prints are the best released. The prints I have all are sharp focus and in original packages. Even offbeat films from them seem to be the best negatives they could copy. I don't think it's unusual that when you know what to look for that you end up with the best. Not flying a flag but if one is buying a print then maybe they should know what they are buying.
Again you probably bought a Niles dupe. Blackhawk didn't deal in dupes they went straight to the source which is why they released sound films before sound films were public. After 20 years I still have the first Charlie Chaplain film I bought silent and it is still sharp as hensteeth and beautiful.


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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:25 am 
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Thanks for the replies - re Mick's - on another matter a while ago I stated that I have a Walton print of "Saps at Sea" which is sharp as a tack, very detailed re focus and a good example of balanced contrast - the only issue with that one is it is not the complete feature being edited to fit on 3x400 ft.

As far as Way Out West goes I assumed it is a Blackhawk print as it has the Blackhawk Indian Chief logo at the start. I'll go check the leaders tonight and post what I find.

Cheers -GT


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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:17 am 
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Back again

Bill asked what was on the leaders - just eyeballed them and here is what's there (it is handwriting and at that scale I may have not seen some of it accurately)

The film only has top and tail leaders as it has been re-spooled onto a 1200 ft reel.

At the beginning we have -

HEAD Blackhawk Films [82 (8?)0 1367] "Way Out West" (Reel 1) 3/8/77 FC 3102


At the end

Blackhawk films [880-02 1367] 3/8/77 FC 22/02


There are no physical splices in the film after the leader at the head nor before the leader at the end.

There you go. I did originally think that as it is on a 1200 ft reel it might be of other origin (I think Blackhawk sold it on 4 x 400 ft reels) but as the 1200 foot reel is almost full to the brim that may not matter.


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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:55 pm 
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Hi Guy,

I've come across some nice Walton prints over the years. The problem for me is, as you said, they're all edited slightly. This kinda turns me off buying any these days.

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 Post subject: Re: L & H Way Out West print - very ordinary
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:47 pm 
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I also have several Walton prints and wish I could find more. All mine are the Little Rascal shorts and all are very sharp. I do have an answer on the L&H film you have though, Blackhawk didn't print numbers or titles on the leadouts (Tails) of any of their prints beyond a title or End of Reel # so you may not be referring to an original Blackhawk print. Like I said several films were printed by Niles and the quality was not very good. I have a few Niles prints in my collection only because they weren't printed by anyone else but I usually try to get rid of them. Most of my Niles prints though say on the leader Niles Films Products. Not a good sign.
Just to clarify, even back in the days they were printed, 1200' prints weren't the norm and all companies released films on 400' reels. In the 60's-70's almost every projector sold held 600' reels at the most so companies had to comply with demand and 400' reels gave the longest play time for available projectors.
When the Elmo 1200' projectors came onto the market was in '78 and by then if was for the collector market to assemble their films and show them on a broader presentation without changing reels 5-6 times during presentation so complete films you find on 1200' reels are usually 400' films spliced into one presentation. This is expected.
The only exception is with optical sound films. Optical sound films were released between about '84-89' and were used only in airline presentations. They are still available retired all in one spool. from 2400'-3600'. When found they usually get broken down to several 1200' unspliced reels.
I will say I don't know how Derran films were released. They may be on bigger reels. originally.


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